In this episode Peter talks to Liz Schellenger at the BRMConnect conference 2019 in New Orleans. We would like to thank the BRM Institute for the opportunity to record the podcast at the BRMConnect events.


This podcast is sponsored by Lead the Pack Consulting. Welcome to BRM cafe with Peter Lijnse

Peter: This is BRM Cafe episode three at the conference. So, this is the last day of the BRMConnect Conference in New Orleans and I have a guest here today, and Liz Schellenger. So, Liz can you introduce yourself?

Liz: My name is Liz Schellenger. I am currently on the BRM Executive Council. I also attend two working groups where one I’m a co-lead with truly yours, and another one a reviewer, and have been enjoyed being immersing myself in the institute.

Peter: You have worked as a BRM as well?

Liz: Yeah. So, for the past three years, I was actually a practitioner. We started the practice from scratch about three years ago. It was a lot of learning, a lot of ups and downs, a lot of trials. But when we did discover the institute about a year in that made a huge difference for us personally.

Peter: Yeah. So, the conference, let’s talk about that first because we’re here at the conference. We just finished and there’s background noise here for people actually breaking up which adds to the ambiance, supposedly. So, your impressions of the conference.

Liz: Yeah. I went last year to San Diego and then this year would be my second. Last year I was what I called a background stalker. This year I actually participated. This year, I did like the fact that there were themes to a day. That way you could make a different breakout session at least you were seeing something or attending something that was the same theme, close to the same concept. You didn’t feel like you were missing something completely different of a learning experience. I did in fact like the shorter day on the last day. I know people tend to get real antsy on that day three. And it gives whoever is a closing keynote, like last year, Kip, this year, me. It gives them the opportunity to at least maybe have a little bit of a bigger audience and people don’t feel so hurried and rush to get to the airport. But surprisingly the good news is there’s a lot of people staying. So, people can go out tonight and just kind of sit back and not worry about stuff and get to know the other attendees on a different level which I actually enjoy.

Peter: Anything that stood out from a presentation perspective or keynotes or things you’ve seen or people you talked to?

Liz: You know, to be quite honest, this year, me personally.  I actually did not come as this year with the intent to learn as much like I did last year when I was new. So, last year it was to absorb every single thing I could and I didn’t focus as much on meeting other people, learning companies industries. It was just we were new and we just needed to absorb and learn everything. This year because I’ve been as immersed in the institute as I have with so many different things. Yes, the content was great. But I actually got the opportunity this year which I thought was an extreme privilege, to focus on a lot more meeting people.

Peter: Ok, now…

Liz: “Hey, what do you do? Hey, what’s your industry? What are your challenges? Where did you come from?” And much different it’s been than last year. Actually, I liked it better. I didn’t run around as much. I got to enjoy the conversations as much or a lot more. That made a huge difference. So, that’s kind of why I asked a question that I did in the beginning, of how many new connections did you make and the fact that you saw as many people as you saw, if you could see it that had 10 or more to… that was good to see and I thought that that was cool. I’d be curious, know if a lot of people found that so…

Peter: Yeah. No, actually I don’t think that’s part of the conference. It’s not just the presentations, it’s who you see people actually connecting with other people very easily. And that’s part of the relationship. And I think that’s also that whole idea with the group mostly of the demographics is that they love relationships. They love to actually talk to people.

Liz: Yeah. I actually would like them potentially moving forward if I have to give any feedback. How do you build that actually into the conference every day, a little bit every day? I know you had the COIs and I get that concept. And I know that they had the table stands where they had the areas that you lived, greater[?] self of what have you. And I don’t know what it is but I wish that there was something that they could do a little bit every day, where all you did was focus on relationships with people. What could you do during the day. Half of me says take the nametags off. Don’t look down and cheat and go, “Oh, your name is–” Uh-uh. Go up, make…

Peter: Make friends…[Laughing]

Liz: You know. No. Don’t get me wrong. Is it handy sometimes when you met them the day before and you forgot because I’m old and I forget their name. It is. But I like the fact that I could do that this year. It made a tremendous difference and I’m walking away much different than I did when I walked away last year.

Peter: Yeah. And that’s I think a very good point is to actually start thinking about, okay, how can we get them to have more relationships possibly through– maybe not connecting mostly with the name but really looking at,  “Okay, who are you? What do you do? What’s up?”  Maybe doing some forced relationships. We did that mostly in the earlier conferences, we had some improved classes, etcetera that we did. So, we actually got people to actually work with so or so. I love that.

Liz: Oh! We could do speed dating.

Peter: Oh yeah. [Laughing]

Liz: Sit down in a room like this. Put timers. You got three minutes to talk and you just move around and talk to people, but instead of speed dating, speed meeting. I don’t know what that is. I just made that up but you get to meet a lot more people.

Peter: Yes. Maybe that’s in the thing you’re going to facilitate next year, Liz. One of your presentation topics. [Laughing]

Liz: I would like, the other thing I’d like to see and I don’t know if they can fit that in because it’s not a skill set that we have here. But at my old work, we did have a professional coach and she was phenomenal. And I liked the topics that she had on trust. Trust was at the heart of it. She actually had trust spelled out and it stood for each thing. And each week we would go over what that first letter stood for, all the way down. And it was just not how do you influence, how do you build with your stakeholders. But I’m just talking life in general. How do you get that trust with a person regardless of who that is? That was the other thing that I thought about is get somebody who is an actual expert in here to just have one of those sessions on how do you build those, how do you do that and I’d been thinking about that during… but those were the two things were how do we get it, where you could actually meet more people. Three Hundred and Forty people, that’s hard to meet them all. And you don’t get through all of them. But is their professional that could come in and just do one day or not a day but come here on a day where they were here for a keynote and come in and do that. To me, I think that that would be great.

Peter: Yeah. I think part of that was that… I mean the introduction of a relationship with Danielle.

Liz: In what do relationships mean?

Peter: Yes. In what relationship means. That’s part of it because I think it’s the start of it. But yes, we absolutely need to do more of… so you did a keynote today on purpose. You didn’t keynote on purpose on purpose. [laughing]

Liz: Live on purpose, Yes.

Peter: Live on purpose, okay. That’s it that’s a better thing because I was. Okay, what I was saying now at this moment. [Laughing]

Liz: Live on purpose was the title.

Peter: Yes. Briefly explain, give me a minute basically overview of what you talked about.

Liz: So I had discovered through a bunch of research this year, a Japanese concept called Iki[?] guy where it lays out for you. This a little bit series of questions what you can answer to discover. It help you discover what your purpose could be. Write what you love, what you paid for, what are you good at. And science is just coming out more and more and more that said if you truly have a purpose. If you truly have why you’re getting up in the morning, it keeps you healthier, it puts your depression down, it put your anxiety down, it puts your stress level down, which we all know what stress can do to you mentally and physically. And it just helps you to see that and look at it. So I came up with a purpose shield that people could take with them. I wanted them to put the date down today so that they could revisit it maybe twice a year, but it’s not something you have to revisit and do but I really want people to put it in front of them where they can see it every day. Maybe it’ s their den at home, maybe it’s their nightstand, maybe it’s their office, but to just glance at it, to just remind themselves of what they were thinking and where their passions really lie and just wanted to give them a simple tool to at least help them get started. It’s not the end all be all it’s it’s not going to answer everything. But I thought that it was a great thing. Because as I said I just love that quote that said, “We exist to benefit others.” I thought that that was great.

Peter: That was great. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you had some questions up and I looked through the questions and [inaudible] done that, done that, done that. [inaudible] merely had the answers which were great because I’ve been working on purpose for virtuallythirty-two[?] years now.  And so for me, it was like, “Okay, I can answer all of these. Yehey!”

Liz: Yeah and they seemed so easy until you put your pencil down on the piece of paper and go. But the paper still blank.

Peter: Yeah! [Laughing]

Liz: But you know I had scoured a few hundred questions and narrowed it down to those just to get everybody’s brain going because that purpose shield can be a little bit daunting because it’s blank and everybody says you have to have your purpose and it’s scary if it’s still blank, and you know what, I know it’s not for everybody and that’s okay.  I don’t get upset don’t get my feelings hurt because I know it’s not for everybody. It’s a vulnerable thing it’s putting something down on a piece of paper, it’s admitting if you don’t know the answers and that’s a hard thing to admit. I’ve been staring at this for a long time and I still work online. So again I know it wasn’t for everybody but for me as long as I had a handful of people that walked away and said, “You know what, that’s gonna make a difference”. Not today and tomorrow, but overall, I’m good.

Peter: Yeah. I’ve started doing it but a year ago so, and for me it was important to just, start to think about, “Okay, what is my purpose, Peter?” But when I changed to and basically that company where we just do business relationship management eventually that was my first purpose. Yeah. I’m just doing business relationship management and that’s what I’m good at then I can do this. And slowly it does start to change. It’s like…Hey! I actually really enjoy certain elements of the work. And then I really have some luck that I’m from maybe not that good at it. And the other thing is I’m actually good at which I don’t really want to do so… [Laughing]

Liz: Yeah! Oh, Yeah!

Peter: And but you start to focus and I think that’s part of that and in the coaching actually I find that when I talk to people, we often need to focus on that purpose.  We need to say okay starts defining odds starts looking at what are you what do you need to do and that helps them to actually get better and I think this will be a [inaudible] and significant tool basically that they need to understand okay what am I trying to do here because here at BRM it’s so easy to get pulled in all different directions.

Liz: Well on the tactical and you know especially when you’re a BRM of IT everybody does so much on the how and the what in the technology. How does it work what is it that they do forget to me about the most important question right the why you want to call it the Simons said it Golden Circle you want to call whatever it is but to me the BRM because it is our personalities it is why we do things why we’re there but it’s we have to look at the why and remind people and concentrate on that because then I’m with a lot of people that say, “If you have that why, that purpose, whatever you want to call it and you can get everybody on the same page.  Man, the [inaudible] in the water is so much easier.”

Peter: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah!  So, yeah! I mean doing the keynote which was great by the way.

Liz: Thank you.

Peter: I really enjoyed that. You also spent a lot of time on the BRM [inaudible]. And working with them in all different kind of capacities. And I know what that is eventually you have someone like, “So I’m volunteering for all this BRM stuff okay. How do we actually get someone to pay me or something else?” But you’re spending a lot of time on that and that how is that. I mean for you is you have lots of interest in it and you can get pulled into a lot of different things. What are the most important things you actually do?

Liz: So as I mentioned this past February I got asked to join the executive council. At my last role, I was a director. So directors and up and it’s it’s not as much practitioners, but it’s how do you really influence the executives of a company to see the benefit of what that practice can be? What it can do for you?  What it can do for a company? I just thought was a great opportunity to sit every month with these great people that I normally want to come across and the online campus, or just some smaller initiatives to learn from them, to hear them, to see them. That was great. And you know, when we were here that was also that was one of my most favorite parts is I’ve talked to them and heard their voice for so long and I haven’t seen or met any of them. And we made sure that yes we had a meeting all day Sunday of staff but we made sure that everything else we did was just us people all that. And that was great. I knew I wanted to join the working groups. I knew the two that I had always spoken with me and I knew I wanted to have two different roles, so I like to do the co-lead, when I had talked to Aaron about that, that was for two reasons, one, I really wanted to learn about the value and I agree with what LeAnn said is it does give you the ability to learn about it. In my opinion and kind of bite-sized chunks not when it all gets released but you learn just little by little, by a little bit.  You helped people get out there what somebody needs. But doing the co-lead with you and I don’t think I’ve ever told you this, but what I wanted to do is being an ex project and program manager facilitator and all that, it’s just it’s second nature to me. I don’t even think about it. I actually like it. But with me doing that I have always felt and hoped that it gave you the ability to concentrate on where you were needed meaning the SME, the ideas, the brainpower and it kept both of us at the forefront. But doing what we should be doing instead of you having to do both or me doing something I didn’t know how to do, so that one was a two-pronged.  The coaching…

Peter: Before you go on on that one, I do appreciate and that I do realize that that you’re keeping me in check so don’t worry. I get these pointers like, “Okay you need to do something.” “Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, I’ll do that.” [Laughing]

Liz: But I truly have always loved the facilitation because it’s basically helping, so for my purpose, I very much actually prefer to be in the background. I like that. I don’t put a purpose on the piece paper where I say I’d like to make somebody successful, to me, it’s a little bit different to me that actually is a potential bonus. What I like and prefer is when I’m with people whether it’s an individual to how many I like to make them feel comfortable and safe so that they can be who they truly are and feel that they’re not going to be judged so that they can do go do whatever it is they actually want to do. If they become successful whatever, that’s just a bonus that’s an outcome.

Peter: So on that, before we go into the coaching workshop, we will get back to that. So you say you’d like to be in the background and still you did a keynote. So, is that scary?

Liz: I actually don’t mind public speaking. This is one of the larger ones I’ve done. I’ve done other speaking engagements in the past year or two but they were four organizations. I will say that didn’t mean as much to me. So it wasn’t as much mentally at stake if that makes sense. And because Aaron and Danny came to me and asked me this right after I did the Webinar they said, “Hey, you know the Webinar got really good review how would you feel about turning that into the closing keynote?” The only reason why I actually was nervous there were two reasons why. Truth be told I was nervous. One, I was afraid that nobody would have an interest. Just because I have an interest in the topic does not mean that anybody else did and that I bored them and people just sat there for 45 minutes right they can’t get that 45 minutes back. But truth be told, the other and the more important one to me is I did not want to let Aaron down. That would have crushed me right of him asking and that would have crushed me if I did that so while I prefer to be in the background, I am an extrovert. I’m not going to lie right I’m not quiet, I’m not any of that so I honestly don’t mind either way but if it truly has to be where I feel I can make a better impact. I call it in the background some other people actually call it that you’re in front of people, I guess it’s your perspective or your lens, but that’s if I sit down and think about it that’s what I truly like as I just want to make somebody feel safe not judged so that they can be who it is that they want to be as long as they don’t hurt anybody or know things bad, but so they can be truly who they want to be to go do what they should do.

Peter: What I think is a very important point because this is what and bringing back to business [inaudible] management.  This is what BRM needs to do. Sometimes you need to step out of maybe your comfort zone o actually get that social relationship going to get the appreciation basically for that to be able to get to the next step. I think that the skill set is important but I think a lot of BRMs are sometimes a little bit too much focused on, “Okay here are my strengths and I just keep only doing that.”

Liz: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I mean that was my reasoning for the value. The coaching, I’d always have an interest in it.  I actually prefer the teaching and again it goes just helping you wanted to do that, but I knew I didn’t have enough to co-lead or be a content writer, so I thought hey a reviewer sounds like a pretty good compromise that I could be with the people I could learn from them, maybe I could help by reviewing some stuff. Obviously, Jenny and Elka are great. Nice again to put faces with names with so many people that I’ve been talking on the phone with so that’s been really fun. And then I did the Webinar focus on purpose in February and that’s what led to the institute coming back and asking me to do that. So it’s been busy, between the executive council, between the Webinar, between the keynote and then the two working groups and finding a job, yes…

Peter: We can talk about that as well. [Laughing]

Liz: So it’s this has been one of the hardest years of my life. Of things that I didn’t expect. But having the purpose that sometimes to just… I don’t want to say refocus on, but gave a little bit of a…

Peter: Okay! Let’s…let’s talk about jobs. I mean if you really look at it I mean this is an opportunity, is it?  But other people actually struggle with that. But what is the what would be the perfect job for you at this moment?

Liz: Well, independent billionaire. Things taken so…[Laughing]

Peter: So some people already have that.

Liz: They do, they do, they do.  You know I got thinking about this because I did take the summer off, right?  I have never had an opportunity to spend it with my daughter being a working mom and she only has a few years left home. So my company when they did let you know most of everybody go they’re very kind and generous.  And so I took advantage of that and spent a few months home with my kid. I traveled with her and I slept until six in the morning.

Peter: I don’t understand what that means. [Laughing]

Liz: And it was great. And then as soon as she went back to school right it was turning to, “Hey! Get ready for BRMConnect and look for the job.” And you do,  you have to think long and hard about what is it that you want. And it came back to the purpose of, “Man, I’d really like to do this if the money was there. Oh! the money is over here. But, God! I really don’t want to do that. I would really depress me every day and I don’t want to get out of bed. That’s what I’m doing my keynote on.” So it was a hard set. I actually do enjoy being a practitioner and I’ve thought about do I want to go to a company where they have hundreds of them and be one of the hundreds? I don’t do well where I’m one of the hundreds. If I could go anywhere I would like to build a practice again from scratch mostly because I’ve done it, I suffered through it, I like to think that I know now what to do. Am I going to build it perfectly? No, I’m not because they have different business partners, they have different executive sponsors, they have different than what I had. But I’m hoping that the basis on the foundation of what I know to do could actually really go in and help a company and help somebody.  So Aaron is always has been kind enough to introduce me to some people there. The other thing is if somebody had said would you go be a leader of BRM somewhere? You’ve been there, you’ve built it, you’ve done it, you’ve had crappy business partners we’ve turned around, we have good staff, you have the relationships in the institute, you do this stuff. Would you go do that to mentor for the lack of a better word that? I like all of it, that’s the problem. I haven’t ever done some of it, obviously. I’ve only been a practitioner and built it so I can’t say for sure that I would like the other ones, but it does appeal to me because that’s what I enjoy to do. Here it is saying, “Oh my gosh! These people haven’t done it. And I could help them be good.”

Peter: Yeah! That sounds like you want to be a BRM leadership coach to be honest.[Laughing]

Liz: I did have somebody come in and asked that and the only reason why at least for the next three years that would be a struggle, is the travel.

Peter: It’s actually interesting we go over [inaudible]. I do it. Yeah?

Liz: Yeah.

Peter: I do everything online, the coaching is all online.

Liz: Really?

Peter: Yeah. It’s in my home. I mean I travel to do workshops and those kinds of things. But I mean if you really look at coaching just from a perspective of individual coaching with people.  You just set up WebEx or Microsoft teams or sessions and you just basically give them an hour based on that. It’s the approach, it’s a discussion, it’s that quick call, basically to, “Hey, I have a meeting tomorrow and can you help me prepare?” I see you’re thinking now, we don’t have a video in you, but I see you thinking I just had to give the image here. It’s like, “Oh, I never thought about that.”

Liz: Yeah! And so for me, travel’s hard, right? So I got thinking about all this. When you have time to think and mostly to be quite honest I think when I’m working out during my two workouts if anybody ever stopped and watched me especially when I do my hit. It’s ridiculous, Because I’m doing it and I’m like, “Oh my God, that’s good. I should write that, go with that.” And it’s so bad but I know I couldn’t travel all the time because I’m not that kind of mom that would hurt me. And she’s only home for three more years.

Peter: Yeah! You’re on the road. [Laughing]

Liz: You know I’m that could open things up as long as my husband was you know okay with that.  I like being in an office because of my personality. I like whiteboards.  I know that sounds dumb, but I like whiteboards. I like people being in a room. I like people talking in the break room, “Hey, how is your kid’s game last night, man? Did you see the so-and-so was playing on…?” I actually really enjoy that and that’s part of that. So I will say being home the past few months that’s what I’ve missed the most. The coaching I thought of, but I feel like the reason why I didn’t lean as heavy towards that, is I would miss that. My personality, I have determined mentally needs that.

Peter: It needs people around you. Yeah.

Liz: Not! Not all the time. Everybody needs their quiet time. Have you ever heard the term Ambivert when you’re talking Introvert and Extrovert?

Peter: Yeah! Well, not that term but I understand what you’re saying.

Liz: I am an Ambivert. I have a little bit introvert tendencies. I have the majority of extrovert, but my introverts are sometimes you just have to leave me alone I got to recharge, I need to think, that’s…

Peter: What I see the difference quite often in recharging an introvert needs to recharge more often?

Liz: Yes!

Peter: And while an extrovert actually can just have, “Okay, just leave me alone.” I mean I have the same thing…I mean at the end of the day, especially here at the conference [inaudible] as well, at the end of day as long just shut up and we’re just gonna sit here and I need to maybe do something before I just can go to sleep.

Liz: Yup, I put my jammies on and I read and you turn your brain off and you don’t think about anything and you go.  But truth be told, if I stop and I think about it, I get my energy from being around people.  But it’s very specific and I’m thinking about the people that I just came from that coach and I talked about she came and she did our media team. So, It was all the directors, and we were new to each other, but at the end of that, it took about a year. I still talk to those people every single week. One of them came with me here, and that tribe that you have, man, does that make all the difference in the world. You’re okay to fail. You’re okay to try things.  But, I do get the energy were introverts get the energy from being by themselves and being it. I am the true extrovert in that case.  Where you get the energy from, being with people, being in the room, being at the whiteboard drawing and doing and taking the picture. I like that. I miss that. So, again, I would like to be in the office. I just haven’t quite figured out what capacity at this point in my life makes the most sense. And so, some of the stuff that I’ve interviewed for has been a little bit of everything. Unfortunately, I haven’t talked to anybody where I’ve gotten excited yet.

Peter: Yeah! That need to click…but…

Liz: Yeah.

Peter: And then the one thing I see and this is also for BRM. If you hire someone you need to look for mindset. But it also means on the other side if you want to get a job you also need to see the mindset mostly from your organization does it fit. It’s not about the skills and knowledge necessary it’s more…

Liz: Hire for the DNA not the MBA?

Peter: Yes, yes! That’s it.

Liz: Yes. I saw that the other day, I thought that was great.

Peter: Yeah! I can’t remember who said it [inaudible] but it said it was one, yeah.

Liz: Yeah! And it’s you really do find yourself especially getting a little bit older like we are where you interview them way more than they interview you. And it’s not how much am I going to make what’s the vacation? It’s what kind of leader really are you? How do you develop your employees? Do you believe in developing your employees? If you have a crisis and everything. Tell me how you are? How do you step up? So it’s things of that nature and so I’ve taken a few people off guard kind of with it but if they go with it and I know, “Okay, you know we’re good.” I had one woman that said when I asked her what kind of leader she was, she said, “Honestly I don’t really have time to be one. I’m hiring people that can just come in and they can leave me alone.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.”When I was in Dallas and she was in New Jersey. And she’s like, “Hey! I mean we could talk if you needed me, but I’m so swamped. They’ve asked me to do stuff because I’ve succeeded so much. They’ve asked me for new projects so I’m really looking at you to take on other stuff.” And I was like, “And I’m out.” But that’s why you ask it though, right? Because there is somebody else who would have been, “Sweet, that’s great. I’m never going to have to talk to you.” That’s just not what I want.

Peter: Yeah, no, Indeed. And that’s what you are looking for. Great. So wrap up, conference… If you had to select one word to say, this is what the conference is for me about and then briefly explain basically what you mean by that word of course.

Liz: I’d go back to the connections.

Peter: Connections?

Liz: Yup, and I tried to get it from all different lenses all different aspects some of them where practitioners, some of them were vendors such as yourself, some of them were board members like, I finally got to talk to Joe [inaudible], I make sure I spend time with all the institute people because they go above and beyond for me and they’ve been so kind. So, for me, I don’t want to say relationships because they’re not there yet but connections to potentially get to the relationships that’s why I use that word, very intentionally. So, BRMConnect 2019. Not to be on the connect, but connections.

Peter: Connections, Good. Do you have any questions for me?

Liz: I am always curious about how the conference is from your lens or from your perspective because not only are you a vendor partner, but you do a lot actually with the institute itself. So I can’t tell if you attend from two different perspectives.  How you mix[?] those two together or because some vendor partners that are truly what’s space they stay in, right? And there are some that are like yourself and Elka where you are vendor partners but you are also what I call fully immersed in the institute. So that’s very different. So I would say help me understand that when you come here, what is it that you hope for and not expect but just hope for and in what kind of lens do you see it through?

Peter: One of the things that I’ve been trying to actually figure it out for myself. So I see relationships into two parts. You have market relationships where it’s like I give you something, you give me something back.  And then you have social relationships where I give you something, and you appreciate that I gave it and that’s it. Yeah? That’s the social relationship. So I need to balance those two and it’s difficult sometimes. I’m way more focused on trying to build social relationships, not asking for things back. That’s how I sit in the conference. Do I talk about my business? Absolutely.

Liz: As you should.

Peter: But I’m not bringing it always up. So I’ve had conversations here. I mean I’ve done a lot of coaching here at a conference and I most of the people that I actually coach for a half hour which I think is reasonably short I actually told them to come back to me for another hour. And we’ll just actually sit down or over a conference call etcetera and just talk about what you really your issues are because we can further expand that. And most [inaudible], it’s great. And then you see the thing, “Okay, what does that mean? Does that mean now committed?” And I’ll say, “No, just do it.” We will never talk to each other of a lot. I’m fine with that as well. I just want to make sure that I give that, but that’s basically both of them, Elka’s and my personality is that we love to do these things. Eventually, something will come back from that. That’s how we sit in the conference. Is it difficult sometimes because I’m also the regional Ambassador so sometimes I just need to organize a networking session and then I need to say, “Yeah well, Lead The Pack Consulting is sponsoring this but I’m here as a regional ambassador, talk to me about your issues.” And then people have some like, “Yeah, you’re going to talk about it. Okay, hat kind of products and services?” “No, I’m not.” And I actually have said those to people in here, at the conference I’ve said it as well. I said, “Yeah you can get this basically from Kip Fanta. He will actually do the same thing. Go to that person and go to that vendor basically because you can actually get the same service there as well.”  Someone said, “Well I need to have extra quote[?], go to BRM and see they will send it actually to all the vendors and I’ll get it as well. So you will get a quote from me as well. So, I think the social relationship actually will eventually get me more than always talking about the market relationship where it’s like, “[inaudible], here is something [inaudible].”

Liz: Get more with honey than vinegar?

Peter: Yeah, and that’s how I see it. But it’s absolutely conflicted in the back [inaudible], “Oh, this is interesting.” [laughing]

Liz: Yeah! Well, that’s kind of where the curiosity came, right?

Peter: Yeah!  But it’s difficult and to be honest, if you constantly push or, “Okay. Hey, here’s my product, here’s my product etcetera.”  People walk away from you anyway, so it doesn’t help us. Great. Awesome. It was great talking to you.

Liz:  You too. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Peter: Yes. I would say it was great. And thank you and I’m looking forward to…

I mean we, we work together at this as well so I’m sure I will get an e-mail from you.  Can you please look at this now. [Laughing]

Liz: Yes, I’m sure the nagging will come back soon.

Peter: Yes. I’m really happy too, that we had this opportunity [inaudible].

Liz: Yes! Thank you!

Woman: This podcast is sponsored by Lead The Pack Consulting. Let’s meet again at the next BRM Cafe.